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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/01/10 08:07:37 PM 
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Doug, I really think you've got me twisted up here. In a bad way. It's understandable because my initial argument, like each of ours, was delivered in a "blanket" sort of fashion. Yet, it's not understandable because damn, do I really seem that nonsensical? Of course, it's hard to make such a judgment based on text alone and I think alot of this wouldn't have even gone this far if this was live, open dialogue.

Let me please try and set this straight the best I can...

Me acknowledging the existence of popular opinion from a specific period or place is not me considering it to be "okay" just because it was popular opinion at the time or place. It is simply me acknowledging its existence as such. If I went on a trip to Iran with a female companion (family member, friend, child, etc.) and she commited a capital crime while on this trip, please do not think that I will sit back and think it okay for someone to commit the acts you've described because, "Hey, that's how they operate here." Believe that I would be ready to crush the first muhfucka's skull that dared to even think to lay a hand on her, regardless of their typical methods. I would do it knowing the consequences, and I would do it without regard for their laws or regard for how outnumbered I am because, I agree, it is very plainly wrong. I would also like to think I would act the same if the female wasn't with me, but an Iranian stranger I'm witnessing this happen to. Because I think it is wrong. Believe that I do not think any form of slavery or oppression was okay just because "the times and current culture" considered it okay.


One Term wrote:
Feelings of "war" and "peace" all depend on the "when" and the "where."

Let's say we question three separate people on their opinion of current conflicts in the Middle East: (1) an American military veteran who has served in the Gulf War and has no children, (2) an American military veteran who served in Vietnam and has three children, two of which served in the military and both lost their lives in recent skirmishes in the Middle East, and (3) an Iraqi father whose family's lives are in disarray after recent bombardment of their home and the loss of several of their friends as a result of these conflicts in the Middle East.

I am pretty sure that we would not get much agreement on how things are. If we base it solely on their location, their opinions will differ. If we base it solely on their family situation, their opinions will differ. If we base it solely on the outlook of their own personal futures, their opinions will differ.

If we went back in time and asked a military veteran who served in the U.S. Civil War, where his own backyard was the battlefield, I'm sure his opinion on these would differ from that of the Gulf War vet in the previous example. Same type of person, generally, with the same "where" but a different "when."


One Term wrote:
And there will always be changing of what is considered unfair or inhumane treatment of others. From treatment of women to treatment of children. From treatment of the sick to treatment of criminals. There never has been a universal agreement upon mankind about such things. Even within a single nation. What some consider an improvement, others can equally argue that it's a decline. The subject of the "death penalty" is a perfect example.


All I was merely saying here was no different from what both you and Free$peech each elaborated on. There were times when women were mistreated or considered less than equal in certain places. Those times are gone in certain places. There were times when the sick were "exterminated" and it was considered alright in certain places. These times are gone in certain places, and the sick are generally helped. There were times when criminals were publically hung in certain places. Those times are gone in certain places, and people/laws oppose execution in certain places. Nowhere in my rambling did I say I thought it was okay because that's how the times were. I just stated what was.


Big Doug wrote:
You were arguing that considerations of what constituted humane treatment of criminals, for example, were "entirely subjective."


On the contrary. What I said was "there will always be changing of what is considered unfair or inhumane treatment of others. There never has been a universal agreement upon mankind about such things."

Times have changed in many places, and laws and majority-acceptances have changed with them. But even within a single city, these changes in majority-acceptances do not represent the acceptances of all. This is what I was saying here.


One Term wrote:
Point is, you'll never be able to put yourself into life in the Middle Ages and say, "Okay, times here were much worse than the 21st Century is." Mainly because you'd have to consider your point of reference, on both ends. From what view of the 21st Century are you looking? From what view of the Middle Ages are you comparing that 21st-Century-view to? Are they both equal representatives of humankind as a whole?


Are we comparing from a household in Beverly Hills and from a nobleman's homestead? Are they both equal representatives of humankind as a whole for their respective time periods?

Where I was going with this is based on the reason behind the thread in the first place, and why I think we couldn't "suggest that there is a rise or fall in quality because our view is going to be entirely subjective regardless of how much research is done and insight provided." I said "our view" is going to be "entirely subjective" because there is no way we can prove what everyone who has ever existed thought of the quality of their life, especially since "not everyone is going to be represented, or fully represented, in texts of history or reports of today," and especially since their own view would be subjective, as well.

Big Doug wrote:
It seems to me that life is, today, better than it has ever been before for most people.


This is entirely subjective. I never said you are incorrect. How can I? I never said you are correct. Again, how can I?

Please say that this has shed just a smidgen of light on my initial words. That'd be groovy.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/01/10 09:08:27 PM 
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On Tuesday September 11, 2001, at least 35,615 of our brother and sisters died from the worst possible death, starvation. Somewhere around 85% of these starvation deaths occur in children 5 years of age or younger.

So why do I say the world is worse, because before people were not privy to such readily available data, such things went unknown. Centuries ago, dire poverty in Europe was unknown by nations in Africa. However, today, we know such things and still it is easy for us to allocate 700 billion to banks, 700 billion to military expenditures and countless billions on space exploration yearly. We hear but don't listen; see but do not understand.

We can use women as a measuring stick, but I think it is misleading to point to the Draconian laws of Iran and ignore the 1/3rd of Women in US Military Raped | NEWS JUNKIE POST. 33% of US military women raped, and people are not being brought to justice and that is just as Draconian as anything going on in Iran. Add that 33% with the general population of battered women and raped women, and how do anyone figure that we have made leaps and bounds for the cause of women.

At best, I agree with One Term, this is all purely subjective and we will never know because we cannot ask those that lived centuries ago. What is absolutely fact though is the state of the earth and our first hand knowledge of the misery and suffering around.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/01/10 09:52:03 PM 
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One Term wrote:
Let's say we question three separate people on their opinion of current conflicts in the Middle East: (1) an American military veteran who has served in the Gulf War and has no children, (2) an American military veteran who served in Vietnam and has three children, two of which served in the military and both lost their lives in recent skirmishes in the Middle East, and (3) an Iraqi father whose family's lives are in disarray after recent bombardment of their home and the loss of several of their friends as a result of these conflicts in the Middle East.

I am pretty sure that we would not get much agreement on how things are. If we base it solely on their location, their opinions will differ. If we base it solely on their family situation, their opinions will differ. If we base it solely on the outlook of their own personal futures, their opinions will differ.

If we went back in time and asked a military veteran who served in the U.S. Civil War, where his own backyard was the battlefield, I'm sure his opinion on these would differ from that of the Gulf War vet in the previous example. Same type of person, generally, with the same "where" but a different "when."


I really don't understand this example at all. My position in this thread has been basically that moral considerations should not be dependent on who's considering them. Again, I reject moral relativism as a coherent moral theory. As such, I don't understand why you're just listing some people who would have a different perspective. I mean, to go back to my Iranian example, the member of the Revolutionary Guard that is committing the actual rape and the officer or judge that ordered it probably have a different perspective from the woman being raped. We can all agree on that. But still, and I mean you no disrespect when I say this: so fucking what?

Free$peech wrote:
We can use women as a measuring stick, but I think it is misleading to point to the Draconian laws of Iran and ignore the 1/3rd of Women in US Military Raped


So, in other words, you're saying that an institution in which women can reasonably expect to face the possibility of being raped as a matter of probability is comparable to an institution in which women can certain that they will be raped as a matter of course? If you can't distinguish between the two then I don't think we can even really have a discussion.

Free$peech wrote:
At best, I agree with One Term, this is all purely subjective and we will never know because we cannot ask those that lived centuries ago.


Okay. If that's your position, then you should admit that you were completely wrong when you wrote that:

At some tragic point in history, man plunged from the cliff of balance, stewardship and unity, and into the abyss of chaos, carelessness and hate.

Again, there is no evidence of some sort of peak. There is no evidence of even a plateau. And if you want to argue that it's "purely subjective" then you're not in a position to argue make an argument against this.


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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/01/10 10:15:33 PM 
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Big Doug wrote:
I really don't understand this example at all. My position in this thread has been basically that moral considerations should not be dependent on who's considering them. Again, I reject moral relativism as a coherent moral theory. As such, I don't understand why you're just listing some people who would have a different perspective. I mean, to go back to my Iranian example, the member of the Revolutionary Guard that is committing the actual rape and the officer or judge that ordered it probably have a different perspective from the woman being raped. We can all agree on that. But still, and I mean you no disrespect when I say this: so fucking what?


That example was intended to explain this part of my initial argument, and THIS PART ONLY: Feelings of "war" and "peace" all depend on the "when" and the "where."

This sentence is not in relation to any sort of morals or ethics. I did not mention such a thing in that sentence. I did not mention such a thing in that example of perspectives either. Are you connecting this example to another part of what I said? I wasn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/01/10 10:25:13 PM 
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Compare how many women will be raped in the military to how many women will face this injustice you are talking about in Iran. Must be a lot of women committing capital crimes in Iran. I do not think so. Why is it comparable, because what you minimized as probability still does not deter one from thinking that an innocent woman being raped should have more light shed on it than one convicted of a capital crime.

And if my perspective is that the world has declined, then who, with all due respect, the fuck are you to tell me I am wrong. Maybe I can go to the poets of English anthology and note how they discussed a bleaker future, and were they wrong> Whose to say? Its a perspective that cannot be dis-proven or established, but somehow you want to be right. We cannot have a discussion because the only "right" answer ends at your ego, and sorry if I am offending you by suggesting you do not have that kind of control, to limit my perspective!

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/02/10 10:53:25 AM 
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One Term wrote:
That example was intended to explain this part of my initial argument, and THIS PART ONLY: Feelings of "war" and "peace" all depend on the "when" and the "where."

This sentence is not in relation to any sort of morals or ethics. I did not mention such a thing in that sentence. I did not mention such a thing in that example of perspectives either. Are you connecting this example to another part of what I said? I wasn't.


So, in other words, the point of your example was merely to show me that people looking at things from different vantage points have different perspectives? If so, okay. That's fine. But I think I'd already acknowledged that much. Moreover, I don't think anyone would disagree with that in the first place. I suppose I can be forgiven for thinking you meant something more than that?

As for "feelings" of "war" and "peace," I still have to disagree with you, even with this clarification of differing perspectives in mind. War, as most of us use the word, is not a feeling. Either peoples are warring or they are not. It's one of those questions that's basically objective (assuming you avoid the issue of how a particular ruling body defines war as in the case of the Iraq War, Vietnam War etc). The same goes for peace. You can flesh out what it means to be at peace. And people will probably have disagreements there. But if we can come to an agreement on an understanding from which to proceed then we can answer the question objectively. After all, all these questions really boil down to questions like: are people killing each other or aren't they?

Free$peech wrote:
Compare how many women will be raped in the military to how many women will face this injustice you are talking about in Iran. Must be a lot of women committing capital crimes in Iran. I do not think so. Why is it comparable, because what you minimized as probability still does not deter one from thinking that an innocent woman being raped should have more light shed on it than one convicted of a capital crime.


Let me back up and say that I don't even understand why you're making this comparison in the first place. I brought up the example of Iran to show that some things are wrong regardless of whether or not they're accepted culturally. Even if this were just a hypothetical my point would remain the same.

And to go back to your comparison, I still think that, regardless of the absolute number of victims, there is a difference between an institution in which a women might be raped as a matter of probability and an institution that demands that a woman be raped. But I don't know how to respond beyond saying that. I honestly have no idea what point you think you're making.

Free$peech wrote:
And if my perspective is that the world has declined, then who, with all due respect, the fuck are you to tell me I am wrong. Maybe I can go to the poets of English anthology and note how they discussed a bleaker future, and were they wrong> Whose to say? Its a perspective that cannot be dis-proven or established, but somehow you want to be right. We cannot have a discussion because the only "right" answer ends at your ego, and sorry if I am offending you by suggesting you do not have that kind of control, to limit my perspective!


Calmate. You wrote:

At some tragic point in history, man plunged from the cliff of balance, stewardship and unity, and into the abyss of chaos, carelessness and hate.

If the words balance, stewardship, unity, chaos, carelessness and hate are to have any meaning whatsoever then this is not a simple matter of "you have your perspective and I have mine." I mean, if that's how you think about this then why did you even rebut me when I said that I thought things were better now than they were in the past? That's just my perspective, after all! And apparently I can throw any wild assertion I want out there as long as I call it a perspective.

In conclusion, I am right and you are wrong. This is my perspective.

(Edit: Please don't take my sarcasm for hostility. There is none. But I can't exactly convey a tone of good-natured snarkiness in writing.)


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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/02/10 12:08:10 PM 
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Big Doug wrote:
So, in other words, the point of your example was merely to show me that people looking at things from different vantage points have different perspectives? If so, okay. That's fine. But I think I'd already acknowledged that much. Moreover, I don't think anyone would disagree with that in the first place. I suppose I can be forgiven for thinking you meant something more than that?


Well, Doug, at some point you were under the impression that I was conflicting with my initial argument. This example was part of an attempt to clarify everything in my initial argument. If you understood what I was trying to communicate in that portion from the jump, then cool. But there were portions that you were unclear on what I was trying to communicate and obviously needed further explanation. It was merely guesswork for me to figure out exactly what portions those were because if what was throwing you off was obvious to me at any point in this entire discussion, this would've been settled a long time ago. In result, my effort was to clarify the entire initial argument sort of "piece by piece." The irony: more confusion has come.

Big Doug wrote:
As for "feelings" of "war" and "peace," I still have to disagree with you, even with this clarification of differing perspectives in mind. War, as most of us use the word, is not a feeling. Either peoples are warring or they are not. It's one of those questions that's basically objective (assuming you avoid the issue of how a particular ruling body defines war as in the case of the Iraq War, Vietnam War etc). The same goes for peace. You can flesh out what it means to be at peace. And people will probably have disagreements there. But if we can come to an agreement on an understanding from which to proceed then we can answer the question objectively. After all, all these questions really boil down to questions like: are people killing each other or aren't they?


And this is an error in my initial word selection. Rather than "feelings of," I should have chosen to write either "feelings about" or "feelings on" to avoid any confusion in my meaning here. I do not disagree here.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/02/10 03:24:39 PM 
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Okay. But to go back to what you wrote that sparked this whole thing:

One Term wrote:
I honestly couldn't, and don't think anyone could, place a scale on times being better or worse for humankind or suggest that there is a rise or fall in quality because our view is going to be entirely subjective regardless of how much research is done and insight provided. Not everyone is going to be represented, or fully represented, in texts of history or reports of today. Feelings of "war" and "peace" all depend on the "when" and the "where." And there will always be changing of what is considered unfair or inhumane treatment of others. From treatment of women to treatment of children. From treatment of the sick to treatment of criminals. There never has been a universal agreement upon mankind about such things. Even within a single nation. What some consider an improvement, others can equally argue that it's a decline. The subject of the "death penalty" is a perfect example.


Now, I'm not going to deny that your place in time and space are going to have an effect on your attitudes about whatever given issue we're talking about. But is that really all you're arguing here? It seems to me that here you're arguing that you can't call a particular time better or worse than another time because how you feel about what's better or worse is tied up with the time and place in which you live. Am I crazy or do you mean something different here?

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/02/10 09:21:00 PM 
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Big Doug wrote:
Now, I'm not going to deny that your place in time and space are going to have an effect on your attitudes about whatever given issue we're talking about. But is that really all you're arguing here? It seems to me that here you're arguing that you can't call a particular time better or worse than another time because how you feel about what's better or worse is tied up with the time and place in which you live. Am I crazy or do you mean something different here?


Doug, you can call a particular time whatever you want to dream up. No matter where you're from. No matter what era you lived in. I'm not restricting anyone from doing this.

For instance... I could say that the current times are the smelliest that man has ever known, and that no times have smelled worse than these. My next door neighbor can argue that these same times are the sweetest smelling times known to man, and that no times have smelled better than these. There may be countless things (physically and/or emotionally) within both of us that influence these different opinions of ours. But which one of us is correct? Can either of us be proven wrong? Can either of us formulate a factual decision on the odor for all of mankind throughout all of history, recorded or not?

Now... Free$peech feels that times for mankind are declining, and have been for some undefined length of time. You feel that times, for most people, have never been better. There may be countless things (physically and/or emotionally) within both of you that influence these different opinions of yours. But which one of you are correct? Can either of you be proven wrong? Can either of you formulate a factual decision on this "rise or fall" for all of mankind throughout all of history, recorded or not?

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/02/10 11:18:06 PM 
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For the last time, I agree with you that "better" is, like "smelly" a subjective term. I HAVE ADMITTED THIS FROM THE OUTSET!!!!!!!!!! (I don't know how many exclamation points I need to convey my frustration here.) !!!!!!!!

Big Doug wrote:
I agree with you in that the term better is subjective


However, from the outset I have also defined the subjective term "better" in terms of several factors that can be objectively measured:

Big Doug wrote:
What I mean by better is that people are living longer, are healthier, have more wealth and leisure time, and are more literate and generally educated than they were in the past. And don't get me started on the rights of women.


If we can accept my conception of "better" as a working definition from which to proceed then we can indeed make an objective assessment of whether one time period is better than another. (Again, people are either living longer or they aren't. Either people have more leisure time or they don't. Etc. I suppose "healthier" can be a little fuzzy but still...)

And even if you don't accept my definition you can still test whether or not my argument is coherent or workable or valid or whatever on its own terms. (If, for example, there was generally less violence in the past than now my argument is invalidated.) What you're talking about is the fact that there are different conceptions of the word "better." I don't disagree with you. In fact, I've already given you several examples of potential point of disagreement. For instance:

Big Doug wrote:
Some disagreements might be a little more difficult. I didn't mention religiosity in making my case. But Free$peech brought it up. He and I would no doubt disagree on whether or not it's a good thing for people to have faith in God. And that's fine. I think everyone should go godless. He doesn't.


In this case Free$peech and I might disagree on whether or not it's "better" that fewer people believe in a personal god in one time period or place than in another. Still, it's an objective standard if used as a metric for defining what constitutes "better." There are either more god believers or there are less. It's not a matter of opinion.

And yeah, I will concede that if you think that going to war is a noble thing and the duty of every male in a given society, for example, then you might think that it's "better" to live in a more violent time than a peaceful one. In this case, a feeling "about" war would indeed affect your assessment of whether or not living in a peaceful time is a good thing. But so what? Even that person can judge one time as better or worse if he accepts my working definition, even if only for the sake of argument. And I can make the same sort of judgment if I accept his framework. Either there is more violence or there isn't. We can examine this question whether or not we agree on the implications of its answer.

So I don't think that your argument holds any water at all. Furthermore, I've already addressed these points!

I suppose that I should also say that "smelly" is just not at all comparable to "better" as I have defined it because there is a moral element to be addressed. And as I think I have demonstrated, morality is not just a matter of differing taste. It is wrong to rape a woman, for example, regardless of whether or not there is an instance in which it is culturally or legally accepted to rape a woman (as in my Iranian example). That is unless you're a moral relativist. Are you a moral relativist?

In conclusion, we are living in the most awesome time to be alive because we have been able to receive the good news about The Big Lebowski. I'm going to go watch the Big Lebowski. You should probably do the same. And have a White Russian too.


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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 08:40:38 AM 
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Considering that I do believe in God and accept Scriptures, then there was a time when Adam was in unity with nature, walked with God and understood his balance in the world, and due to the evil that came man began his plunge. This is accordance with my belief, so then the tragic point is a point that is defined and factual. My perspective came from my belief system...

At some tragic point in history, (evil entered the Garden of Eden, therafter)man plunged from the cliff of balance, stewardship and unity, and into the abyss of chaos, carelessness and hate. They now delusionally plummet toward inevitability while celebrating their conventionalism and morbid mastery of ignoring the latter stages of actualizing their fate.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 10:01:17 AM 
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Big Doug wrote:
For the last time, I agree with you that "better" is, like "smelly" a subjective term. I HAVE ADMITTED THIS FROM THE OUTSET!!!!!!!!!! (I don't know how many exclamation points I need to convey my frustration here.) !!!!!!!!

Big Doug wrote:
I agree with you in that the term better is subjective


I agree that the circles we're going in have been a joke. Because you are intent that I am saying things that I am not.

Big Doug wrote:
However, from the outset I have also defined the subjective term "better" in terms of several factors that can be objectively measured:

Big Doug wrote:
What I mean by better is that people are living longer, are healthier, have more wealth and leisure time, and are more literate and generally educated than they were in the past. And don't get me started on the rights of women.


If we can accept my conception of "better" as a working definition from which to proceed then we can indeed make an objective assessment of whether one time period is better than another. (Again, people are either living longer or they aren't. Either people have more leisure time or they don't. Etc. I suppose "healthier" can be a little fuzzy but still...)

And even if you don't accept my definition you can still test whether or not my argument is coherent or workable or valid or whatever on its own terms. (If, for example, there was generally less violence in the past than now my argument is invalidated.) What you're talking about is the fact that there are different conceptions of the word "better." I don't disagree with you. In fact, I've already given you several examples of potential point of disagreement. For instance:

Big Doug wrote:
Some disagreements might be a little more difficult. I didn't mention religiosity in making my case. But Free$peech brought it up. He and I would no doubt disagree on whether or not it's a good thing for people to have faith in God. And that's fine. I think everyone should go godless. He doesn't.


In this case Free$peech and I might disagree on whether or not it's "better" that fewer people believe in a personal god in one time period or place than in another. Still, it's an objective standard if used as a metric for defining what constitutes "better." There are either more god believers or there are less. It's not a matter of opinion.


You're absolutely right. I do not deny this. Never have. Please show me where I've contended this. They are objective, yes. They are objective standards used to define what constitutes what is "better," which is a subjective idea.

Free$peech wrote:
yes I can look to the iphone and internet as great advances, but I do not


One Term wrote:
What some consider an improvement, others can equally argue that it's a decline.


There's either more technological advances here or there are not (objective). Free$peech does not see this as an improvement (subjective). I do see this as an improvement (subjective).

How you're defining the term "better" with objective standards does not make your definition of the term "better" any less subjective, in the end. Because someone else using the exact same measurement of objective standards can define that as "worse."

As I've said before, it is not wrong for you to come to your conclusion of what is better or worse. As I've also said before, your conclusion is not wrong. And as I've always said, your conlcusion is not right, either. How you go about coming to this conclusion does not matter.




Big Doug wrote:
And yeah, I will concede that if you think that going to war is a noble thing and the duty of every male in a given society, for example, then you might think that it's "better" to live in a more violent time than a peaceful one. In this case, a feeling "about" war would indeed affect your assessment of whether or not living in a peaceful time is a good thing. But so what? Even that person can judge one time as better or worse if he accepts my working definition, even if only for the sake of argument. And I can make the same sort of judgment if I accept his framework. Either there is more violence or there isn't. We can examine this question whether or not we agree on the implications of its answer.


Please show me where I said that they couldn't make their own judgment. Please do. Because I am certain that not only did I not say this, but that I have said a few times that they can.


Big Doug wrote:
I suppose that I should also say that "smelly" is just not at all comparable to "better" as I have defined it because there is a moral element to be addressed. And as I think I have demonstrated, morality is not just a matter of differing taste.


I don't know, man. I've witnessed some odors that are morally wrong. But seriously, you can either take the example for the content, or you can take it for the principle. Doesn't matter, because this should take us in another loop shortly.

Big Doug wrote:
It is wrong to rape a woman, for example, regardless of whether or not there is an instance in which it is culturally or legally accepted to rape a woman (as in my Iranian example). That is unless you're a moral relativist. Are you a moral relativist?


One Term wrote:
Me acknowledging the existence of popular opinion from a specific period or place is not me considering it to be "okay" just because it was popular opinion at the time or place. It is simply me acknowledging its existence as such. If I went on a trip to Iran with a female companion (family member, friend, child, etc.) and she commited a capital crime while on this trip, please do not think that I will sit back and think it okay for someone to commit the acts you've described because, "Hey, that's how they operate here." Believe that I would be ready to crush the first muhfucka's skull that dared to even think to lay a hand on her, regardless of their typical methods. I would do it knowing the consequences, and I would do it without regard for their laws or regard for how outnumbered I am because, I agree, it is very plainly wrong. I would also like to think I would act the same if the female wasn't with me, but an Iranian stranger I'm witnessing this happen to. Because I think it is wrong. Believe that I do not think any form of slavery or oppression was okay just because "the times and current culture" considered it okay.


If that screams "moral relativist" to you, then fine. I'll bee dat!


Free$peech wrote:
Considering that I do believe in God and accept Scriptures, then there was a time when Adam was in unity with nature, walked with God and understood his balance in the world, and due to the evil that came man began his plunge. This is accordance with my belief, so then the tragic point is a point that is defined and factual.


Oh... no... you... didn't.

I mean, of course it's your perspective. But saying that it's factual because it's your belief is a bit far-fetched. Even if you're putting it in reference to only yourself. Because you believe it to be true does not take it beyond being a belief and into the realm of fact, even within Free$peech. It will have Free$peech look at is as factual, but it will still only be a belief to Free$peech.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 10:22:07 AM 
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However, this is just not a belief to Free$peech, to all those that will be celebrating easter tomorrow accepts my belief system and since the Muslims also accept the the Torah, then some of the them as well accept my belief. I am not alone in my perspective. Not that far fetched to understand that many would accept my perspective to have a spiritual and historical bases.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 10:27:58 AM 
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Free$peech wrote:
However, this is just not a belief to Free$peech, to all those that will be celebrating easter tomorrow accepts my belief system and since the Muslims also accept the the Torah, then some of the them as well accept my belief. I am not alone in my perspective. Not that far fetched to understand that many would accept my perspective to have a spiritual and historical bases.


What are you proving by saying this?

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 11:07:27 AM 
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[/quote]What are you proving by saying this?[/quote]

I am generalizing in order to keep each response dealing with you as well as BD, therefore within my response I offer an answer to Big Doug who said my perspective was wrong as well as to you, that you cannot disprove that my perspective lacks objectivity, facts.

And I understand that I cannot establish it to be fact either, hence it being my perspective. Also, as a sidenote, in accordance with my belief, I am overjoyed to be living in the here and now, to be closer to a resolve to this madness than in the past, further from a coming end.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 11:40:15 AM 
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One Term:

I think we should go back to what got this whole ball rolling:

One Term wrote:
I honestly couldn't, and don't think anyone could, place a scale on times being better or worse for humankind or suggest that there is a rise or fall in quality because our view is going to be entirely subjective regardless of how much research is done and insight provided. Not everyone is going to be represented, or fully represented, in texts of history or reports of today. Feelings of "war" and "peace" all depend on the "when" and the "where." And there will always be changing of what is considered unfair or inhumane treatment of others. From treatment of women to treatment of children. From treatment of the sick to treatment of criminals. There never has been a universal agreement upon mankind about such things. Even within a single nation. What some consider an improvement, others can equally argue that it's a decline. The subject of the "death penalty" is a perfect example.


I suppose I should say that this comment, along with your "smelly" analogy are what have made you sound like something of a moral relativist. I just don't think that a word like "better" can be compared to "smelly" if what we're talking about is something like woman's rights. The analogy only holds if you hold the view that moral values are basically subjective. But I suppose that's more a problem that comes with arguing by analogy than it is anything else. You end up sneaking assumptions into your arguments (in this case probably unconsciously).

Anyway, I appreciate the clarification regarding "feelings of" vs "feelings about." And I take the obvious point about that our perspective on a given matter is largely dependent on the vantage point from which we view it. I also agree with your comment about taking differing even repugnant perspectives into account as a practical matter.

As for where I'm still unclear, I just don't understand for the life of me why you have a problem with me developing a sort of basket of measurements for what I consider to be "better" and arguing that these times are "better" on this definition. I mean, yeah, other people might disagree with my choice of metrics. We've been through that. But so what? I suppose I should stop trying to rebut you because after going through some of your clarifications again, I really don't understand what you're trying to convince me of at this point.

Free$peech:

I suppose I should say that special creation does not necessarily follow from a belief in the god of the Bible. There are plenty of people who believe in that god and accept the theory of evolution as well as big bang cosmology, for example. This is the official line of the Catholic Church, for example. On this view, the story of Adam and Eve is basically allegorical and not describing historical persons or events. Those people will be celebrating Easter tomorrow too.

I'm really not sure what else to say. I suppose, accepting special creation, you are right. I don't. I think it's wrong on the merits. And I'm very comfortable saying that if that's your perspective, your perspective is wrong. Objectively.


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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 12:31:12 PM 
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And yet you say that without proof. You go with what you want, go with those that say it is allegory, but I call it Creation, and accept it as such. Half the population disagree with President Obama, but that doesn't mean this establishes truth or lies, because as I said from the beginning, one's perspective is one's perspective. You have no measurements or data to disprove what I assert yet you conclude that I am wrong.

At best, you can assign my perspective to the realm of the unknown, something One Term said as well. Again, perhaps due to your ego, you cannot accept something being unknown, you have to render judgment, you have to be right despite having no facts! That's your perspective, and not that I would say you are wrong, but it certainly makes you a difficult person to have discourse with, my perspective.

The very nature of Plato's forms also support my position, that before there was a chair, their was a thought of a chair, a perfect chair, and then the thought was made real. You support evolution, I support that God thought of man and then created him, and from there a decline proceeded, my perspective, one that you cannot disprove or you would have done it already.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 03:02:26 PM 
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Big Doug wrote:
I suppose I should say that this comment, along with your "smelly" analogy are what have made you sound like something of a moral relativist. I just don't think that a word like "better" can be compared to "smelly" ...


Is the smell better or is it worse? Are the times better or are they worse? That's the principle.

Big Doug wrote:
I just don't think that a word like "better" can be compared to "smelly" if what we're talking about is something like woman's rights. The analogy only holds if you hold the view that moral values are basically subjective. But I suppose that's more a problem that comes with arguing by analogy than it is anything else. You end up sneaking assumptions into your arguments (in this case probably unconsciously).


Chea!


Big Doug wrote:
As for where I'm still unclear, I just don't understand for the life of me why you have a problem with me developing a sort of basket of measurements for what I consider to be "better" and arguing that these times are "better" on this definition. I mean, yeah, other people might disagree with my choice of metrics. We've been through that. But so what? I suppose I should stop trying to rebut you because after going through some of your clarifications again, I really don't understand what you're trying to convince me of at this point.


And I don't understand for the life of me where you see that I said I have a problem with you developing a sort of basket of measurements for what you consider to be "better" and arguing that these times are "better" on this definition. Especially when I just explained how you AND another person could use your metrics to do what you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 03:18:11 PM 
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Free$peech

I said you were wrong without bothering to attempt to prove it. Sure. Fine. Guilty. I just don't feel like running through the lines of evidence for evolution by natural selection and an old earth. I will just say that I have more than measurements and data. I have the central organizing theory of biology. I have big bang cosmology. And theories, if you'll remember, are considered to be a higher level of truth than data.

Special creation, on the other hand, has a very hard time dealing with basic scientific facts, especially when coupled with a belief in a young earth. I've already sketched some of these problems out in an earlier thread. You then proceeded to tell me that an "estimate satisfies nothing" because I had the audacity to use the word "probably." So excuse me if I just don't see you as being open to evidence on this point.

So yeah, I have science on my side. You have a holy book. You can say I'm being egotistical. Fine. I can say you are choosing the myths of a primitive, superstitious and barbaric people over the careful examination of the evidence. And we can talk about perspective all day but it seems to me that you're use of the word renders other words like "truth" "fact" "right" and "wrong" as being utterly vacuous.

As far as disproving god, I haven't tried to do that in this thread, sure. I don't suppose that you can if we're just talking about say, a higher power. As for the Judeo-Christian conception of a personal god, I can run through my objections in another thread if you like. But that'd be better left for a new thread I think.

One Term:

I'm saying that I object on the grounds that I don't think my use of "better" is analogous to "smelly" without the assumption of moral relativism, among other things. And therefore, I don't even think it makes any sense or goes to any point you were trying to make. And I'm still unclear on your point.


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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps A Perspective...
PostPosted: 04/03/10 03:45:08 PM 
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"According to evolutionary theory, starting with the chaos and disorder of the Big Bang and the simplicity of hydrogen and helium gases, the universe created itself. This is clearly a violation of natural law, namely the Second Law of Thermodynamics. According to this law an isolated system can never increase in order and complexity, transforming itself to higher and higher levels of organization. An isolated system will inevitably, with time, run down, becoming more and more disorderly. There are no exceptions. Contrary to this natural law, evolutionists believe the universe is an isolated system which transformed itself from the chaos and disorder of the Big Bang and simplicity of hydrogen and helium gases into the incredibly complex universe we have today. This is a direct violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If natural laws are natural laws, the universe could not have created itself. The only alternative is that it is not an isolated system."

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