What is God's answer(s) to America's problems?

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

Are there any examples in history?,

Prophecy?

Logically?

Philosophically?

And, for me, some of these questions are rhetorical but I'm very interested, so please offer.

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/07/09 11:06:58 AM

First off, which god?

And regardless, I don't think that any of our major holy books have anything to say that even comes close to approximating an answer to most of our problems. I mean, does the Bible have anything to say about unemployment insurance? What about Keynesian economics? What does the Koran have to say about our shift towards a more realist foreign policy? What's the Vedas preferred approach to health care reform?

I just don't see the relevance.

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

The God of the Jews, Islam and Christians...

Isn't it okay to not post in a thread in which one feels lack relevancy? Seriously.

You do not go into a restaurant you hate just to tell them you do not like their food, do you?

Also, is America's problems so trivial i.e unemployment insurance? My unemployment insurance is the house I own, the chicken coop and garden; that's relevant and biblical, so go distract someone else's thread with your negativity (no offense).

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/07/09 03:36:38 PM

Son please.

The point of posting in this thread when I don't think that the Bible or the Koran has any answers is just to voice that opinion. It's that simple. That's my opinion. You're asking what God's answers are. I'm saying that God doesn't have any answers....at least not in the Bible. Our problems are fundamentally different from those faced by early Christians in 1st century Palestine. That's my opinion.

If you or whoever wants to quote from Acts or Numbers or whatever and pontificate on the deep meaning therein that's fine with me. Do you. But I don't think that the Bible really has much to say with regard to our current political situation. And I'll be happy to tell you why.

I really don't see how that's "negativity".

Peace

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

Quote:

Son please.

No response necessary.

Quote:

If you or whoever wants to quote from Acts or Numbers or whatever and pontificate on the deep meaning therein that's fine with me. Do you. But I don't think that the Bible really has much to say with regard to our current political situation. And I'll be happy to tell you why.

Basically, God do not exist if God is not applicable?

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/07/09 09:47:27 PM

Nah, it's not that. I don't think God exists but that's not what's going on here.

I just don't think that the Bible has to say much about certain issues. When you're talking about science, they call it NOMA--non-overlapping magisteria...ie religion doesn't really say anything about scientific claims and science doesn't really say anything about theological claims. I don't think that it's exactly the same with politics and economics, as the Bible says a lot about both subjects. Hell, I don't really think it's really the case with science. But I think that the idea captures what I'm trying to get at. I think that there are plenty of political issues that the Bible addresses--I did a post not too long ago on the Biblical case against the dogmatic "moment of conception" stance taken by a lot of religious folk with regard to the issue of abortion, remember?

But when it comes to some political issues, I think that the Bible ends up not being such a good guide. The Bible can tell you to be concerned with the welfare of the poor, for example. But if all parties concerned believe that their particular economic philosophy will benefit the poor, then it comes down to a matter of whose philosophy is economically sound and will benefit the poor in the real world and not whose philosophy is in line with Christian teaching, since all parties concerned think that their philosophy will do the most to benefit the poor. Like I said, the Bible doesn't say anything about Keynesian economics or the Laffer Curve or what have you. And so it won't help you resolve questions about how best to achieve an economic recovery (which, in my opinion is our biggest problem)...although it might help you envision what an economic recovery should look like.

Feel free to disagree. I'm just telling you where my head's at.

Peace

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

If I am correct the Laffer Curve pertains to a theory or discourse about how raising taxes effect the economy. Whether or not to raise taxes is a repercussion of an ignored broader issue, though. We can debate about whether to continue to support our insane military and social spending programs or we can discuss the broader issue: man's inability to love one another, to only be slavemasters over and savage with one another.

Possibly an in-road into Keynesian economics: the private sector, these days, is mostly dependent upon "slaves" to materialism and slaves to fear, outcomes encouraged by the private sector. The large role government should play in Keynesian economics has nothing to do with helping the slave be free; which makes the role of government irrelevant in this discussion, they're part of the problem by also encouraging slavery and fear.

Again, because the broader issue is relatively ignored. The policy of government helps the slave survive by subsidizing his/her slavery to wants. Government should be removing all obstacles that are in the way of a person enhancing self i.e prejudice, bigotry etc etc etc. And, this excludes those with developmental or mental disorders.

Do I disagee with you? No. The Bible does not address the Laffer Curve or Keynesian economics.

Where I do disagree is your premise that nothing in the Bible is applicable to America's problems today. Consider our debt. For those responsible for their debt and feel obligated to pay it divert from spending to paying back, but what if the Government, playing their large role, gave subsidies and tax credits to companies for applying the principle of the Bible to forgive a debt after seven years?

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/10/09 10:32:37 PM

Free$peech wrote:

We can debate about whether to continue to support our insane military and social spending programs or we can discuss the broader issue: man's inability to love one another, to only be slavemasters over and savage with one another.

Okay, but this is exactly the kind of thing I'm getting at. I don't see how this observation is supposed to solve the problem. I think that most of us can agree, regardless of our religious persuasion, that we as a species tend to try to dominate each other. But I don't see how that insight helps us.

Regardless, one of the things I actually liked about the Bible was its pessimistic view of humanity. We're a fallen species that's incapable of living up to God's standards and thus is in need of God's grace. And correct me if I'm wrong (it's been quite a whiles since I cracked open the book of Revelations) but I was operating under the assumption that Christians believed that things in this world would never really be made right until Christ's return. And so, we might try to do as much good as we can, but we're ultimately unable to change the essential nature of humanity. That's what I liked. In a lot of ways, it agrees with common experience and even, to an extent, the Darwinian account a lot better than other worldviews.

This is what I'm trying to get across. At best, the Bible can offer a philosophical framework in which to think about our situation. And so even if this framework is useful, I don't think that looking for prophecies is really that useful of an exercise. We live in a very different world from the one that Jesus did. And the Bible is very much a 1st century book.

Peace

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

First of all, you are both eloquent and knowledgeable (hopefully I do not get judged for praising you).

In the book of Deuteronomy there is a call to commitment, a commitment to the law of God. Yes, you're absolutely correct, we are fallen, but fallen does not mean alleviated of the responsible to try "to be holy as the Father is holy". I do not think it is beyond a group of people to be a light within America, changing America.

Scripture speaks of how "this great nation is a wise and understanding people" by committing to the law of God, which is the 10 Commandments. Deuteronomy 28:45, "So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the Lord your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which he commanded you."

On the contrary, Deuteronomy 28:1, "Now it shall be, if you will diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His Commandments which I command you today, the Lord your will set you high above all the nations of the earth."

I guess it is wishful thinking to treat these verses like a theory and call those that see this country being flushed down the toilet to join in a research of this theory; for example, what if it was promoted, via a collective effort, first and foremost, in the hoods, "I will not kill." Is this possible, a Commandment impossible to keep? No. I know many people that haven't murdered before. Maybe America's problem is our cynicism and doubt as it relates to the power of obedience, faith and work (which doesn't mean becoming a square).

Love thy neighbor versus survival of the fittest, I believe, is the easier of the theories, as it is the natural instinct of man to treat each other savagely. However, to be set high above all the nations of the earth, I am wondering if it is possible to make a call for a new commitment, as King Josiah did when he re-discovered the law of God.

I not a naive believer, so I do not believe this would save America, but for those people that try, maybe America's fall will not take so many down with it because of this commitment. Hmmm? How do I make "I will not kill" a public agenda, something to be promoted like Healthcare reform or "War on terror." Ultimately, you're right, and I say tentatively, there's no saving the people of this country.

Revelations speaks of a change in the world that revolves around some of the things I mentioned above...

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

Some are leaders while others are followers...some are managers while others are workers.
There's a void of social leaders and social managers--their are always enough workers and followers.

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/15/09 09:40:34 AM

What you're talking about isn't God's answers or God's prophecy or something like that, though. It's taking what you believe is God's word and prediction and attempting to make it so...which would make it more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else. It's not really the same thing.

And as far as trying to organize a movement around anything Bible based, I just don't see it happening...especially with young black folks. Man, most of us grow up in the church. It's not like we don't know about what's in the Bible. So if we're bent on doing something, a Bible-based message is probably going to be in one ear and out the other.

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

Did you read Deuteronomy Chapter 28?

Hosea 4
Prodigal People
1Listen to the word of the LORD, O sons of Israel,
For the LORD has a case against the inhabitants of the land,
Because there is no faithfulness or kindness
Or knowledge of God in the land.
2There is swearing, deception, murder,stealing and adultery
They employ violence, so that bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3Therefore the land mourns,
And everyone who lives in it languishes
Along with the beasts of the field and the birds of the sky,
And also the fish of the sea disappear.
4Yet let no one find fault, and let none offer reproof;
For your people are like those who contend with the priest.
5So you will stumble by day,
And the prophet also will stumble with you by night;
And I will destroy your mother.
6(P)My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest
Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

Although these verses were written of the Hebrews, it is hard to say that the Narrative doesn't seem like it is talking about our plight in these times. And I will destroy your mother? Maybe not destroy her in the physical sense but destroy her purpose in life. 50 years ago women were less than 10% of the workforce and now they're +50% of the workforce; women are the likely victims of violent crimes; and women are likely to bear the responsibility of raising children because of irresponsible fathers; women are becoming men, doing there job. Women are being destroyed in increments because we reject knowledge.

Ezekiel 22: 25"There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey They have devoured lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in the midst of her.

26"Her priests have done violence to My law and have profaned My holy things; they have made no (F)distinction between the holy and the profane, and they have not taught the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they hide their eyes from My sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

I am truly sorry, sickened, by the attitude toward God. Men have reasoned His uselessness and fruitlessness, thus doing away with Him for the comfort of "logic", philosophy and pleasure. This reality, whether you understand it or not, proclaim my failures as a believer.

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/20/09 11:10:19 AM

I think that passage is entirely too vague to be persuasive as some form of prophecy. And I'd be interested in knowing what the rabbinical interpretation of that passage is.

Personally, I think that you can look at passages in most holy books and say that the authors were speaking of the times in which we're living. And with Christianity, there were elements of every generation that thought that they were living in the last days and hence saw things in scripture that they believed to be a prediction of their situation. Johan Bengal, for example, is one of the most important people that you have when it comes to the area of textual criticism. But his careful reading of the Bible led him to believe that Christ was to come in 1836. Have you ever heard of a book called The Late, Great Planet Earth? Its authors claimed that the establishment of the State of Israel signaled the end of the world and that it would occur within a generation of its founding. They claimed that a generation in the Bible was 40 years and so they deduced that the world would end no later than 1988. This book was widely read and helped give some sense of urgency to the evangelical revival that took place in the seventies and early eighties. And yet, here we are.

My point is that I'm really not all that moved by interpretations of vague passages in scripture. And so yeah, I don't think that thumbing through the Bible with the hope of imposing meaning and relevance on certain passages is all that useful. And you really are imposing meaning.

As far as this goes:

Free$peech wrote:

I am truly sorry, sickened, by the attitude toward God. Men have reasoned His uselessness and fruitlessness, thus doing away with Him for the comfort of "logic", philosophy and pleasure. This reality, whether you understand it or not, proclaim my failures as a believer.

In the Bible, God gives even hard-headed skeptics like Thomas and James great first hand evidence that Jesus was who He said He was. He even appears to Paul, who was in the business of persecuting followers of early Christianity. Why doesn't He give today's skeptics like me any such evidence? I'd probably believe if I had Christ appear to me. I think most of the folks that apparently sicken you would agree with that sentiment. Isn't that fundamentally unfair of God, especially considering we might be tortured forever on the strength of this lack of faith? And given that God hasn't presented most of us with adequate evidence, is it any wonder that we've developed new, secular systems of philosophy to do some of the things that religion used to?

Besides, if God exists, didn't he create the rules of logic and mathematics? Didn't he also write His Law in the hearts of every human being? If this is the case, then wouldn't moral reasoning lead us right back to Him anyway? In moral philosophy, all we're really doing is applying reason to our basic moral intuitions. What's wrong with that?

Peace

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

This is not a prophecy presentation; instead, it is a cause and effect presentation; certain behaviors yield certain outcomes. Our behvaior, we have walked away from "God" and his ways, therefore, and possibly, the outcome is this:

Quote:

Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. [a] 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers (indebt to other nations). There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the LORD will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher (, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

Cause and effect rather than prophecy. He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the Sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matthew 12: 38-40).

By no means am I calling you unfaithful or evil, but we do have our sign, We are in the belly of the beast.

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/23/09 12:30:22 AM

If that is an accurate description of God's wrath and what provokes it, then shouldn't we expect to see countries like Sweden and Denmark, countries where God is by and large not feared, to be suffering an inordinate amount of the aforementioned wrath? Shouldn't the coastal metropolitan areas of this country, where supposedly abhorrent behavior like open homosexuality and atheism are far more tolerated, be faring a lot worse than the South? I just don't see how that passage can possibly be said to detail any cause and effect relationship that exists or has been observed to exist in the real world. I mean, don't tell me you're of those people that think that New Orleans was destroyed because of who its people went to bed with?

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

In revelation, its says Babylon, looking like mystical Egypt and Sodom will fall and no one will lift a finger to help it. Sweden do not lift themselves up as the moral standard in the world--leader of the free-world, and as far as I know, Sweden doesn't claim they are a nation under God. Sweden for the most part avoid wars and provide all their citizens with health care, rich and poor. It is written, 1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. Is it not America that teaches the world Democracy and how to use might and strength to get what it wants, while claiming to be the moral standard in the world, the nation under God?

I do not want to do this since "your one of those people that are anti-God"; seemingly what's the point? However, Ezekiel will tell you that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah had more to do with the neglect of the poor than it had to do with gay and lesbian lifestyle. Ezekiel 16:49, ""Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy."

Katrina would not of been God's judgment, but further evidence of how this country treat its poor and needy. Do not follow the propaganda by the self-righteous saying this country is in this situation because of our tolerance for gays and lesbians. Astronomical debt, war and bloodshed, orphans, the poor treatment of the elderly and all the lies and bribes and corruption happens to the benefit of the rich. We can fund most social programs with a 10-20% cut in our military budgets; but the poor and needy are not worth that trade-off.

Don't be one of those people that see but don't perceive, hear but don't understand, because your own wisdom and logic are more trustworthy than history's evidence. Egypt, Sodom, Babylon, Rome and so many other nations have this in common, they neglected the poor and needy while bragging to the world that they are the city on the hill. America boast about being the city on the hill, the greatest country in the world, the leader of the free-world, but Katrina, to the seeing and hearing, exposed America's nakedness, because America is partial and hateful and is a nation under God but it is controlled by the father of lies and his systems.

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/23/09 08:25:29 PM

I think you're sort of conflating a few different things. I mentioned Sweden and Denmark in response to that passage from Deuteronomy that you posted. You presented it by saying that these are supposedly the penalties for walking away from God, which Sweden and Denmark have done in a way that no other once Christian or Jewish nation has. This didn't have anything to do with Revelation. We weren't talking about Revelation. We were talking about a specific passage that you pulled from the Old Testament. And so I think that my point stands. If this is somehow a description of what the punishment is for walking away from God then, however unassuming and generally nice their people are, these two countries should be feeling the sort of wrath you described.

Furthermore, this sort of interperetation is consistent with other stories in the Old Testement. Remeber Numbers 25? God commands Moses to kill anyone who married a Midionite and prayed to their God. They even celebrate the simultanious killing of a Midonite woman and her Irsraelite husband with the same spear! And why shouldn't they? After all, God did warn that "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed" (Exodus 22:20). And so this sort of thing, grotesque as it is, makes perfect sense given that God has specifically commanded us against walking away from him. Moreover, the importance of this sort of notion is codified in the first few Commandments, which deal with the proper way in which we are to worship God. The point is that blasphemy and disbelief are indeed serious enough sins in the Old Testament to warrent the sort of wrath prescribed in the passage you quoted. And yet, we don't see these things happening in disbelieving countries. So yeah, my point stands.

As far as Sodom and Gommorah, you're right. Like I said before, it's been a minute since I've really read this stuff. I guess the passage where the angels warn Lot is what I remember most. Hell, it's what almost everyone remembers most! "Bring them out so that we may know them." It stands out. But I digress...

And yeah, I'd agree with you that Katrina was fucked up. I'd infatically agree with you in that it showed the callousness and ineptitude of our leaders and our elite. But where I'd disagree with you is the notion that God, from time to time, collectively punishes people for the wickedness of the society into which they were born. And so while I apologize for asking you whether or not you fit into that Pat Robertson category, you seem to at least share his belief that God sometimes punishes people for the sins of their neighbors.

As far as Egypt, Babylon and Rome. If you want to talk history, I think that modern history is probably more analogous. But I'm doubting that it's even going to be as dramatic as what the British went through in the 20th century. My guess is that we won't so much go down in flames as be slowly overshaddowed by the emerging economies of countries like China, Brazil and India. But take that for what it is...speculation.

Peace

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

1 Peter 4:17 (American Standard Version)

17 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?

My point was that Sweden doesn't profess itself to be leader of the free world, nor (I assume) do it profess itself to be a Nation under God, nor touts its moral superiority. The verse from Peter clearly states that God will deal with those that know Him and call upon Him as their God. Judgment to begin at the house of God; perhaps Sweden is not His house, I do not know. However, I do know that most Americans believe in God and profess God as their God and savior, and the profession earns the title of prodigal nation, child, congregation, etc. etc. etc.

Believers are judged first according to IPeter and I am using that verse and others like it to refrain from bringing into this discussion Denmark and Sweden.

Jews and Christians should know God better than those who do not profess to know Him, and only an unjust God would judge those who didn't believe in Him in the first place, while letting His believers go free despite acting like non-believers.

Quote:

I'd disagree with you is the notion that God, from time to time, collectively punishes people for the wickedness of the society into which they were born.

Excuse me, but where did I make that assertion? I think destruction and poverty, the effects, are the consequences of foolishness and trusting in man's way? God says spare the rod and hate your child. However, I do not think God says, Because you spare the rod, I will have your child act a fool in Wal-mart. I do not think it works that way. I think your child acting a fool in Wal-mart is a natural consequence of sparing the rod.

God says what we should do, likewise with Deuteronomy 28, and if we do not then there's a consequence for disobeying--action reaction, cause and effect. If you don't eat, you will die...If God is your God, our God, then we need to look at obedience more than we should look at anything else.

Big Doug · **Posted:** 08/24/09 11:30:53 AM

Let me recap because it really seems like you're trying to dodge my point.

First, you quoted that passage from Deuteronomy and claimed that it's the penalty for walking away from God. I gave you the example of Sweden and Denmark. Again, these are two countries that started out as good, Christian nations like any other European state. If I'm not mistaken, they still have a state church. So it's not as if they started out secular. But now they are, as is a lot of Europe to a lesser degree. You were talking about how man has walked away from God and turned towards logic and philosophy and what have you. You then stated that there is a punishment for this. And now when I give you an example of societies that have done what you were warning against, you add new conditions.

Oh, Sweden doesn't count because they don't claim to be one nation under God. Oh, Sweden doesn't count because it's somehow not in God's House, even though they started off as a Christian nation! I only pointed them out because they committed the exact crime that you warned against. But apparently they don't count. Come on! Your whole argument is ad hoc. I mean, let's look at what you wrote before:

Free$peech wrote:

I am truly sorry, sickened, by the attitude toward God. Men have reasoned His uselessness and fruitlessness, thus doing away with Him for the comfort of "logic", philosophy and pleasure. This reality, whether you understand it or not, proclaim my failures as a believer.

Doesn't this describe most of secular society and especially Northern European countries? Come on man. If there were all these other conditions in the first place, then why didn't you say so?

And this:

Free$peech wrote:

Believers are judged first according to IPeter and I am using that verse and others like it to refrain from bringing into this discussion Denmark and Sweden.

So nonbelievers aren't judged for their rejection of the God? Since when? Rejection of God and especially rejection of God in favor of another God are offenses that warrent the death penalty in the Old Testament.

And finally:

Free$peech wrote:

Excuse me, but where did I make that assertion? I think destruction and poverty, the effects, are the consequences of foolishness and trusting in man's way?

The passage you quoted describes a collective punishment. God's wrath for a society that rejects Him. Furthermore, the Old Testament as a whole is filled with examples of collective punishments either commanded, carried out or condoned by God. Remember when Dina is raped? All the men in the villiage of the rapist, Shekkham are killed for his crime. God never condemns this. How about when God sends plagues to the people of Egypt because of the actions of their pharaoh? He even kills children, who could not have possibly been responsible for any crime. What about when one of God's greatest prophets , Moses, orders the destruction of every Midionite man, woman, and male child (the virgin girls were, of course, to be taken by the Israelite men, obviously). Again, even if every adult is guilty the children, who cannot be guilty, are being punished. So God clearly favors collective punishment. There's just no escaping this. I'm sorry for my assumption though. You apparently disagree with the God of the Old Testament on this. But if that's the case, why quote from it at all? Why not just take the route of Marcion and scrap the whole thing?

And besides, even ignoring all of this, your position is still falls apart on its own terms. If a crumbling society is just the effect of turning away from the ways of God and embracing the ways of man, philosophy, logic etc then Sweden and Denmark should still be feeling these effects you've described! As secular societies, they by definition follow the ways of man! And yet, here they are. They're doing just fine.

I just don't think there's any merit to your position. If all you want to claim is that common decency is necessary for a decent society then that's fine. But that's not the same as saying an indecent society is the result of turning away from God. Clearly it's not. Clearly you can turn away from God and still maintain a decent soceity. And so you clearly don't need God or the Bible to be decent.

Peace

Free$peech · **Joined:** 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM **Posts:** 309

Quote:

Free$peech wrote:I am truly sorry, sickened, by the attitude toward God. Men have reasoned His uselessness and fruitlessness, thus doing away with Him for the comfort of "logic", philosophy and pleasure. This reality, whether you understand it or not, proclaim my failures as a believer.

Where we went off-roading...I made that statement in reference to the positions taken here at HHE, and was not referring to society, or the world as a whole. I was talking about the negative attitudes toward God, here and here alone.

Then you brought in Sweden and Denmark, of which, Sweden, I just read an article talking about how Sweden plans to tackle national debt and unemployment. However, for the sake of brevity, I am not going into what you define "as doing just fine."

I am not sure of your recollection of Scripture but not every judgment is collective. David's adultery and murder did not lead to the collapse of Israel. This is only one of many situations where individual sins do not lead to collective judgment. I'll give others if you need more proof.

There's no merit to God of the OT judging only collectively. And, as far as my position goes, when America collapses, the single strongest pillar holding up the world economy, then what will happen to Sweden and Denmark when America falls? In Scripture, it also talks about how God chose Egypt to be the example, because of how powerful and strong Egypt thought it was. The destruction of Egypt had rippling effects, as with the judgment of America.

You pick and find all the holes you want, but the fact remains, I was talking about HHE when I made that assertion. Nonetheless, if we wanted to make it applicable to the world, then consider the markets around the world when America's collapsed. God uses the biggest and strongest to make examples of, and it would be hard for me to say that Sweden and Denmark fits the bill. America collapsing leaves the world awe-struck, Sweden collapsing falls from news in less than a month--speculative.

hiphop-elements.com

What is God's answer(s) to America's problems?

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