In an industry where many artists ride the bandwagon ride with gimmicks or unoriginal personas as fuel, Pigeon John defies definition and proves his individuality. While the average person may buck to the pressure, Pigeon John ascends over the sometimes generic world of hip-hop while facing the stereotypes of race and environment. Years of experience, mixed in with original styles and a sense of humor became his fuel to rise above all that is mundane and boring.
Son of an African-American father and a Caucasian mother, Pigeon John experienced racism from both Black and white people. As he moved from Nebraska to California, he continued to be lost in the confusion of an identity crisis and only found solace in musical expression. When he drifted towards places like The Good Life, he began to hone his skills in the same open-mic venue that had opened doors for The Pharcyde, Freestyle Fellowship, and Kurupt. As he shopped around for deals, John once again faced the dilemma of his identity. Labels wanted him to be either a Black guy who made hip-hop or a white guy who sang with a guitar. As a man who was both, Pigeon John refused to deny any part of his true, multi-faceted character. He found his footing in the racially blind arms of melody and a sense of peace within musical collaborations. He became a member of The Brainwash Project, (an L.A. group including bTwice) as well as the highly respected L.A. Symphony. Although his future was bright, his solo career did not look promising due to his feedback from labels as being “unmarketable”. Eventually, Pigeon John could not commit fulltime to a group and took a risk when he decided to pursue his solo career.
Solo albums by Pigeon John have always been special slices of his life. His debut album, “Pigeon John Is Clueless” was a self-released opus filled with an awkward humor and an engaging vulnerability. Songs like “Cheerleaders” and “Eviction Notice” possess bittersweet humor and universal themes. Syntax Records eventually distributed the “Pigeon John Is Clueless” LP with bonus tracks. In 2003, Basement Records signed the artist and released his magnificent sophomore album, “Pigeon John Is Dating Your Sister”. While the humor may have been the LP’s first aspect that gained the listener’s attention, the “Pigeon John Is Dating Your Sister” also possessed a sweet sincerity and a poignant honesty, which gave the music a respectable substance. The song, “Identity Crisis” expressed his struggle of being unaccepted by both races. “Emily” was a sad tale about the continuing cycle of fathers who abandon their families. “Life Goes On” (featuring Abstract Rude) was a potent anthem that moved listeners through hard days while “Hello Everybody” was just a fun joint. Just when listeners thought he could not improve on his discography, Pigeon John released 2005’s “Pigeon John Sings The Blues” on Basement Records. A darker and mellower collection, “Pigeon John Sings The Blues” contains 10 new tracks, 3 remixes from the “Pigeon John Is Dating Your Sister” LP, and 2 enhanced-CD videos (“Hello Everybody” and “Life Goes On”). “Nothing Without You” and “She Cooks Me Oatmeal” are excellent tracks where John soulfully sings his heart out about his love and appreciation for the woman in his life. Beautifully sad yet triumphantly emotional, “The Grand Ol’ Waltz” instills faith and peace in listeners. Even though the opening track, “Upside Down Rotten" has a mellow style, John adds a party vibe as he sings about how he is going to “turn this party upside down.” Finally, fans and the music industry are giving Pigeon John some much deserved respect. Quannum Records (home of Lyrics Born and Blackalicious) recently signed Pigeon John and plan to release his next LP.
On the day before Easter Sunday in 2005, we had a stirring, insightful, and intellectual conversation. Yes, Pigeon John is taking off and music is the wind behind his flight. He is venturing away from his longtime home, Basement Records. He is abandoning his insecurities. He is also fighting against the banality of music while ascending to creative greatness. Have a nice flight, Pigeon John!

T.JONES: “What goes on?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I’m in Gainesville, Florida. I’m on tour with Living Legends and Jedi Mind Tricks. Oh yeah!”

T.JONES: “Your new album is called ‘Pigeon John Sings The Blues’. Tell us about it.”
PIGEON JOHN: “On this one, I wanted to take the more laid back approach with writing the songs. With hip-hop being my basis for all the songs I write, it is obvious that is what I grew up listening to. But, for these songs, they way they came out, they were originally songs to accompany a book of poetry that I’m putting out with this small publishing company. Basement Records got wind of it and they told me that they wanted to put it out. At first, that wasn’t what I wanted to come out. For people who are already into Pigeon John, this is a different side to Pigeon John. Basement got excited and started pumping it up. ‘Pigeon John Sings The Blues’ is almost like the dark side of ‘Pigeon John Is Dating Your Sister’. It is the more somber side. I made it during the same time frame as ‘Pigeon John Is Dating Your Sister’, but the songs did not fit in with the ‘Pigeon John Is Dating Your Sister’ LP. In my mind, I wanted to make a chill out record that was not so much funny or quirky. It’s more headphone music. I wanted to give it to my fans already into me. I’m a little self-conscious about it. A lot of times, this may be the first impression of Pigeon John for some people. It is kind of out of my hands. Also, I was listening to a lot of hip-hop in the clubs and on the radio, and its all hype. That’s a huge part of hip-hop. It came from the clubs and everything. I wanted to make hip-hop that you could listen to in the morning or after the club. You would not want to pop in M.O.P. at 9 a.m.”

T.JONES: “What is the meaning or origin behind the name Pigeon John?”
PIGEON JOHN: “My real name is John. Back in Inglewood, I wanted a cool rap name and I was going by John at the time. It wasn’t too hot. A friend of mine had seen the TV series ‘Roots’ and there is a character named ‘Chicken George’. My friend got the idea and told me that I should call myself ‘Chicken John’. His mom overheard it. We were kids at the time. She poked her head into the kitchen and told me that I looked more like a pigeon. It just kind of stuck.”

T.JONES: “There is a sincere vulnerability within your music. While many other emcees rap about how they always get women, are never turned down, and can accomplish anything, you rhyme about getting rejected, dissed, and feeling isolated. Was this vulnerability something you consciously added into your music or did it just came out?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I think it is from me growing up. For me, when I was a kid, I was just finding out who I was. That pretty much defined me for the rest of my life, for the most part. These are key things that happened in Elementary School. I was born in Omaha, Nebraska and experienced racism on the white side. I am half-Black and half-white. It was confusing. I didn’t know my father. My mom is white and all my family is white. My cousins are white. When I moved to Inglewood, California, the whole neighborhood was Black and Latino. Then, I was the whitest person in the neighborhood. I didn’t fit in there. That formed a balancing act. There were these girls who I wanted to get with, but because I didn’t grow up 100% in Inglewood or was exposed to all of that, I didn’t totally fit in. I couldn’t get the fine girls that I wanted. On the other side, if I was dating a girl from Orange County and they found out I was a rapper, they always wanted me to rap. There was this balancing act of not fitting in. That is the foundation of most of my music. I had to try to find myself.”

T.JONES: “Being both Black and White, did you ever find a level of comfort or are you still struggling with it?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I definitely found a comfort level pretty much right out of high school. It was when I pretty much started hip-hop and began writing seriously. I just started rhyming. I let people know that I was Pigeon John. This is who I am. I couldn’t change it, so I might as well have fun with it. So, when I started doing that, I noticed that people took it differently. People started accepting me through music. I have an open mind and open heart in the songs and that kind of defines who I am.”

T.JONES: “What was The Good Life?”
PIGEON JOHN: “The Good Life was where I first went as an emcee. I heard about it in high school. It was an open mic. At that time, I was just at a level of bedroom hip-hop, showing it to my friends. Everything is good to your friends. I went to The Good Life with my best verse and saw some people I knew there. They were surprised that I was even there. They said, ‘You rap?’. It was in South Central. Back then, to say you are from Hawthorne, made people wonder. ‘Why in the world is this guy claiming Hawthorne?’ people said. It was just not hot. Any suburb of Los Angeles was not hot. When I tried my best verse and did not get a response at all, I quickly realized that I was not good. I came back every Thursday and tried to get better. I tried to be as good as the people who were there. The Pharcyde, Will.I.Am, and all those great dudes spawned the laid back and freestyle of hip-hop. It was pretty much the jazz of hip-hop. It made my skin a lot tougher. Being dissed so many times, I learned how to win over different crowds. If I have to get on stage in front of a bunch of snowboarders in Lake Tahoe, I’ll know what to do. Or, if I’m in New York City, I’ll know what to do.”

T.JONES: “When you are writing songs, do you have the lyrics prewritten or the themes ready? Or, do you have the music done first and write to the music?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I definitely hear the music first. I try to hear what is within the music and see how it makes me feel. I try to feel the original idea. A lot of times, the music paints itself a picture and I just try to fill it in with words.”

T.JONES: “Are you an official member of L.A. Symphony or just an affiliate?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I was an official member of L.A. Symphony from 1999, when the first record came out to just last year. That was because I was trying to get with Pigeon John. I was doing the solo thing. I was missing dates and they wanted a full time membership. Maybe in the future, we’ll hook back up. We’re still good friends and we still do music together but the touring gets crazy.”

T.JONES: “The song ‘B’ is an incredible live recording. How has your live show evolved? What is your favorite part of your live show?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I think the live show evolved directly due to the audience. To me, it’s just like theater. If it reads well in the script or in rehearsals, it is not alive until you put it in front of an audience and see how they react to it or how they don’t react to it. I can quickly realize that I won’t do that thing again. Every night, I see. The crowd is so shapeless. There are different people and different vibes. The whole crowd can stare at me, just looking at me, and I can tell that they aren’t into it at all. That can totally throw someone off. My favorite part of my show is when I connect with the crowd. It may be through a song, an interlude, or just me talking to them. Even with The Good Life, I’m so used to competing in the spotlight that I never lost that mind state. Even if I am in L.A. and I’m doing a Pigeon John show, I’m thinking that these people will ‘Boo’ me if I don’t do a good job. I’m at the edge and I’m always thinking. I have to keep it moving or the people get restless. Plus, when people start drinking, they become *ssholes when there is any slow momentum. They can throw bananas.”

T.JONES: “The song ‘Emily’ is a profound tale of a father abandoning his family. Are you a father? Your father left your family. What advice would you give to someone who is in the similar situation?”
PIGEON JOHN: “No, I’m not a father. Yeah, my father left my family. Growing up, it was unusual if any of my friends had parents who were still together. if they even wanted advice, the best thing for me, was finding out who I was as soon as possible. If people just go through life and don’t care, most likely they will do the same thing when they have a kid. It is so embedded in people that they will become their dad even if they never met him. Whether you live with your father or never met him, you will find yourself acting like him. You have to find out who you are and break the cycle.”

T.JONES: “What artists would you like to collaborate in the future?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I would like to work with Beck. I think he is the bomb. He’s right on the pulse. When he did ‘Mutations’, he really put 10 years into his career. He was ahead of everybody. When everyone was trying to be quirky break beat people, this guy came with the country album. He hushed everybody and didn’t do it again. He went straight to ‘Midnight Vultures’. I appreciate that. It is the same with De La Soul. I would love to work with them. Earlier in their career, they were always changing.”

T.JONES: “The album ‘De La Soul Is Dead’ is incredible.”
PIGEON JOHN: “That broke my heart when ‘De La Soul Is Dead’ came out. I was a De La Soul fan. I dressed like them. When they killed themselves, I thought ‘Wow! I have to cut my hair! I have to wear regular clothes! What are you guys doing?’ I thought we were trying to be weird!”

T.JONES: “What producers would you like to work with?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I like traditional producers. I would like to work with John Brian. He’s the bomb.”

T.JONES: “Would you ever put out an album of just singing or just you with an acoustic guitar?”
PIGEON JOHN: “Maybe later on in my career. I would want to work with a professional producer, who knows how to work with that. A lot of times, and I’m probably guilty of it, people can be artistic without guidance. This is just an opinion, and a very naïve opinion, when Mos Def tried to do the rock thing on his last record, it didn’t all the way come through because it was produced by a hip-hop producer. It was a great idea but the production didn’t come through. If it was produced by Rick Rubin, it would have been out of the park. Because the producers were hip-hop on ‘Black On Both Sides’ and the producers were hip-hop on ‘The New Danger’, some people are good at rock tracks and some people aren’t. I think the song ‘Sex, Drugs, And Money’ is the best song on the album.”

T.JONES: “What CDs have you been listening to lately?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I like the latest Elliot Smith record. That’s a wild guy. I just recently picked up John Meyers. That song ‘Daughters’ is incredible. I’m so glad he won Song Of The Year. I haven’t heard a song like that in my life. It was the way that he did it. Also, coming from a dude who doesn’t have children, it was so insightful.”

T.JONES: “How did you hook up with Basement Records?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I have known Roc for a while. He was a local head. Around 2000, I started shopping for a Pigeon John deal. I went to big labels and small labels. It was basically the demo songs for ‘Pigeon John Is Dating Your Sister’. A lot of people liked it. It was clean. They were honest. They told me that they didn’t have any idea what to do with it. It wasn’t clear how to market it. This was at a time when I sat down with A&R’s. They wanted something very clean cut and clear. Hey, I’m a white guy with a guitar and I sing pop music. I’m a Black guy with a jersey who does hip-hop. They didn’t want me to mix it.”

T.JONES: “But look at Wyclef, Lauryn Hill, K-Os, and others. They mix genres.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Most of those people made it in their career by almost an accident. It just came about. Now, people want to do the next Lauryn Hill. Even Nelly and Ludacris had to start their own label. Now they are big. I slowly realized that I had to sign to an independent label.”

T.JONES: “Does Basement Records give you creative freedom?”
PIGEON JOHN: “Yeah. That’s a plus about being on a smaller label. The freedom is great! Being involved personally, I get to say, ‘Yes or no’. There are pros and cons. I don’t get the $200,000 advance check. That shuts a lot of people up.”

T.JONES: “What was the last incident of racism you experienced?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I would say just driving through America. It’s very quiet and I would say understandably. In the white parts we drive through, like the gas stations, you can sense it. I don’t think that it is necessarily their fault. They grew up where there is a Black side of town and a white side of town. I just stayed with my friend in New Orleans, yesterday. He lives in Mississippi. They call that side the Black side of town but also, they call it the integrated side of town. This is 2005 and this is my friend who I am staying with. It is so ingrained in American culture. I try to prove to them that I’m a Black guy and that I’m regular. I’m not trying to do graffiti on your bathroom wall. The last time of racism was just driving through America. There is the silent treatment. No eye contact. I’m sure they feel it as well.”

T.JONES: “Where were you on September 11th 2001, the terrorist attack? How did you deal with it?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I was in Seattle at my wife’s father’s place. I woke up and it was on the news. My wife was my fiancée at the time. She woke me up and told me that we were being attacked. It was so surreal like it was almost detached. It was a calm, cold, numbing feeling. I couldn’t talk about it.”

T.JONES: “Word association time. I’m going to say the name of an artist or group, and you say the first word that comes to your head. So, if I said ‘Public Enemy’, you may say ‘revolution’. Okay?”
PIGEON JOHN: “Okay.”

T.JONES: “Mos Def.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Leather jacket.”
T.JONES: “50 Cent.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Chest muscles.”
T.JONES: “Eminem.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Blonde hair.”
T.JONES: “Atmosphere.”
PIGEON JOHN: “White girls.”
T.JONES: “Jay-Z.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Excellent.”
T.JONES: “Del The Funky Homosapian.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Hippie.”
T.JONES: “Phife Dawg of A Tribe Called Quest.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Overweight.”
T.JONES: “Jamiroqaui.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Where is he?”
T.JONES: “Curtis Mayfield.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Legend.”
T.JONES: “The Stone Roses.”
PIGEON JOHN: “O.G.’s!”
T.JONES: “Massive Attack.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Clean.”
T.JONES: “Gil Scott-Heron.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Powerful.”
T.JONES: “Jean-Michel Basquiat.”
PIGEON JOHN: “That’s that freaking artist! Ah, New York.”
T.JONES: “George Bush.”
PIGEON JOHN: “Rome.”

T.JONES: “What is the biggest mistake you have made in your career?”
PIGEON JOHN: “The biggest mistake I have made is that on the ‘Pigeon John Is Clueless’ record, I didn’t tell the L.A. Symphony guys about the distribution deal that I was striking up. The deal that L.A. Symphony had wasn’t working out. I pretty much went behind their back and said, ‘Yes’ to distribution of the ‘Clueless’ record with Syntax. I didn’t think it was a big deal. When they found out, I knew it was the dumbest thing I ever did. To me, you have to put friends and family first, before music. That was my worst mistake. Even after the apology, they still thought ‘Why did this guy do that?’”

T.JONES: “How did you approach The Brainwashed Project differently from L.A. Symphony songs?”
PIGEON JOHN: “Since The Brainwashed Project was my first group, I never considered myself a solo artist. I love Beastie Boys, Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, and Whodini. They are all trios. They all have 3 guys. I totally enjoyed The Brainwashed Project and I’m confident that it is good. We work very slowly. At the end, it came out and we both liked it 100%. Even if other people don’t like it, we like it. With L.A. Symphony, because it was a democracy, we each only owned like 1/8th of every song. We just tried to rock our best. It was kind of a beautiful thing because no one person owned L.A. Symphony. It created its own sound, which not one of us totally loved but the people who heard it loved. It made its own monster. That’s the cool thing about being in a group. You don’t really like it, but the fans do.”

T.JONES: “Do you enjoy being a solo artist?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I don’t like being a solo artist. I love collaborating and letting people shine. I’m trying to make the goodtime feeling of L.A. Symphony on my stuff. I’m in a good mood lately.”

T.JONES: “What advice would you give to an artist taking the independent route?”
PIGEON JOHN: “Learn to do every single thing by yourself, especially nowadays. The meaning of the label is becoming less and less. The quicker you learn how to do everything by yourself, and releasing EPs by yourself, before you start shopping for deals, you do not have to wait on anybody. Labels are looking for momentum.”

T.JONES: “If you could remake, update, or cover any song, what would it be?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I would do ‘Girls’ by Beastie Boys. I’m totally surprised that some punk group didn’t cover that song. It’s a classic. It is a bona fide hit. Everyone can cover it because you don’t even need permission from The Beastie Boys.”

T.JONES: “What are some misconceptions people have of you?”
PIGEON JOHN: “A lot of times, people think that humor and silliness overshadow most of the stuff I do. I think that it is okay because you have to get in one persona. Chuck D is a revolutionist. He’s not known for his dancing. For me, it’s okay but sometimes, people think, ‘Here comes Pigeon John, he’s the funny man!’ For me, it’s not the humor side of it but the term, you laugh to keep from crying. I think that is all it is. That is the type of humor I represent. It is when you are at the verge of losing everything, you start laughing because you have no idea of what else to do. I think that is a dark, scary, and lonely humor. I love watching comedians. It’s theater. It’s common theater without the fluff. I hear that doing comedy is harder than doing drama. It’s okay for people to think that people think I am the funny guy.”

T.JONES: “I hear that you have a new deal. Who is the new deal with and what is the new album going to be like?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I just got signed to Quannum Records. The new record will be great. It will come out in the Fall. This is the ultra-hyper side of Pigeon John. It’s about having fun with Pigeon John. I kind of want to make it like ‘A Day In The Life Of Pigeon John’. You know how the movie ‘Ferris Bueller’s Day Off’ was in one day? I want to make a record like that. I want that feeling.”

T.JONES: “You are leaving Basement Records? How did they take this news?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I’m leaving Basement and going to Quannum. It was a little tough but very gradual. It took a year. I kept everything open. I told Roc what Quannum was offering. I just got off tour with Lyrics Brown, who is on Quannum. The working title is ‘Pigeon John And The Casio Kings’.”

T.JONES: “What collaborations or remixes should fans look out for?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I’m working with Count Bass D on a track. Dwight Spitz! We’re covering a hymn song. It was his idea. The beat is so chunky. He sent it to me with a hymn book. I didn’t get it at first but then, I realized, no one has ever done a rap hymn song. That is most likely going to be on the Quannum record. I also did a song with Opio from Souls Of Mischief. I’m trying to do a song with Fat Lip and another one with J-Live. Also, I’m doing stuff with L.A. Symphony.”

T.JONES: “That song, ‘Granite Earth’, on Opio’s LP is mind-blowing. How did that collaboration come into fruition?”
PIGEON JOHN: “I was originally talking to Hiero Imperium before Basement. When they came around, I was scared. I used to listen to them when I was young. Hieroglyphics! It took me days and days just to relax. I had to just pretend that Opio was just a guy from around the corner and this is his demo where I’m helping him out. I didn’t want to flip it or show off. It was the bomb. He approached me. That is the ultimate honor, to be approached by one of your heroes. Yeah, dude, it was great! That track is one of my highlights so far.”

T.JONES: “You basically produced most of your albums but there are a handful of songs produced by other people. How is the creative process different from the songs you produced by yourself?”
PIGEON JOHN: “For me, it gives me a lot more freedom. I just pay attention to the words, the melody, and the flow. I let them handle the music and let them be good at that. On the next album, I’m loosening the reigns on producing the music and letting the beat makers craft the bomb beats, even if they are instrumental.”

T.JONES: “Any final words for the people who are reading this?”
PIGEON JOHN: “Thanks for listening. Keep eating hot dogs!”

Thank you Pigeon John!

Interview by Todd E. Jones
toddejones@yahoo.com

WEBSITES:
http://www.pigeonjohn.com
http://www.basementhiphop.com/

AUDIO:
“Life Goes On”
http://www.basementhiphop.com/audio/dating_sister/lifegoeson.ram

“Identity Crisis”
http://www.basementhiphop.com/audio/dating_sister/identity.ram

“Clueless”
http://www.basementhiphop.com/audio/Pigeon_John/clueless.ram